Resource Routes in Eleven
Elsewhere we had a discussion that got me thinking about resource routes and what we, as players, learned about what was needed to create and maintain them. I confess, this is motivated by my (quite intense) desire to see the tools for this brought entirely in-game, without the need to resort to using third-party websites to navigate them. Of course, that kind of system would still be able to exist, I just don't want that kind of framework to be necessary for resource routes to exist.
Let's preface this by saying I was highly involved in (and have already spent a lot of time and energy on) managing the basic route architecture.
These are the key needs and pressures:
1.) People must be able to join and leave routes on their own, and
1a.) Routes need to self-heal when someone leaves.
It was a ton of work generally to stay on top of signposts and ensure the route isn't broken because someone forgot and changed the wrong sign or decided they didn't want to participate anymore. Broken routes were the #1 issue for route users.
One solution was to do away with signpost routing and use third party websites that supplied homestreet teleport links for each stop.
2.) Given iMG rewards for visitors to your homestreet it's needed to spread out the entry point onto the route so all route members are visited equally get rewards and not just those at the beginning, especially on long routes.
3.) Resource density, and to a lesser extent, placement, is an important issue for many users, but not all. People don't want to have to hunt for your resources, and generally prefer them placed together. Not everybody cares about density and placement, but those who do, care a LOT. This was a reason for the SRS routes and eventually, the websites that would map you a route built to taste.
4.) Non-resource routes have different needs that should be taken into account. Tower store (eg, furniture), community kitchen, free stuff piles, and community routes run into different problems and are used differently but still have the same architecture.
***For new readers, the current version of the resource route signpost idea is here: https://humbaba.elevengiants.com/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/5389/#Comment_5389
Let's preface this by saying I was highly involved in (and have already spent a lot of time and energy on) managing the basic route architecture.
These are the key needs and pressures:
1.) People must be able to join and leave routes on their own, and
1a.) Routes need to self-heal when someone leaves.
It was a ton of work generally to stay on top of signposts and ensure the route isn't broken because someone forgot and changed the wrong sign or decided they didn't want to participate anymore. Broken routes were the #1 issue for route users.
One solution was to do away with signpost routing and use third party websites that supplied homestreet teleport links for each stop.
2.) Given iMG rewards for visitors to your homestreet it's needed to spread out the entry point onto the route so all route members are visited equally get rewards and not just those at the beginning, especially on long routes.
3.) Resource density, and to a lesser extent, placement, is an important issue for many users, but not all. People don't want to have to hunt for your resources, and generally prefer them placed together. Not everybody cares about density and placement, but those who do, care a LOT. This was a reason for the SRS routes and eventually, the websites that would map you a route built to taste.
4.) Non-resource routes have different needs that should be taken into account. Tower store (eg, furniture), community kitchen, free stuff piles, and community routes run into different problems and are used differently but still have the same architecture.
***For new readers, the current version of the resource route signpost idea is here: https://humbaba.elevengiants.com/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/5389/#Comment_5389
Comments
Basically, let's make a resource route signpost a thing you can build in your homestreet like any other resource node. Putting one up means you are opting in to the route for that sign, and using that sign will route players randomly to a homestreet that has one and also meets the minimum requirement of belonging to that route.
It would be great, but completely nonessential, if the street owner could set what point you teleport in at when you use a route signpost, so that they could put it at one end of where the route resources are, and then set the route signpost at the other. This would be great so you don't have to worry about which way to go to reach the resource OR double back along your path to get to the signpost. But in lieu of that, better signs would be appreciated: something you can interpret without having to interact with it. (Like an arrow with an icon of the basic resource.)
Let's take the spice route, for example.
I want to get my homestreet on the spice route. How do I do that?
I go to the homestreet resource node menu and I choose to install a new signpost, a route signpost. This resource takes up less than half the space of a basic plot. I select spice, and after adding the materials and doing the work, a spice themed signpost is born! Later, if I change my mind, I can change the resource type for additional iMG, or get rid of it entirely.
Let's say I start working on tree poisoning badges and kill all my spice. As I plant more trees, my butler waddles up and addresses me, "excuse me madamsir" and informs me that without the minimum number/amount of spice trees, the spice route will not flow through my yard. "The spice must flow!" I keep the sign around for later, and in the meantime, use it as an easy way to hop on the spice route. Every once Ina while I get another reminder that I'm not getting any visitors via the spice sign because I need more spice for that.
Now let's look at what using the system might entail.
I am in a homestreet with a spice signpost. I use it and it takes me to a random member's homestreet. When I'm done, I use their spice sign to get to the next spice homestreet, also randomly. That's it. I don't get taken to streets without a sufficient amount of the resource, and the route can't be broken when people leave the route because properly, there is no actual circuit, more of a collective. The sign isn't pointing at someone's yard in particular, but back to a pool of eligible yards.
I'm not sure what the best approach would be for how minimum numbers of resource would be calculated.
- You could go by straight numbers: at least five of the route resource
- you could go by percentage: at least 40% of your plots must be the route resource
- it might be good to either allow for multiple routes with different levels of minimum resource for inclusion in the route (so like, there is a route that requires fifteen/90% spice trees, and one that only requires five or 40% spice trees.)
(I was surprised that there were people who strongly preferred either kind of route. It should also be noted that many people liked to belong to two resource routes, or like myself, wanted half their yard to do other things with.)
- another way to address this might be to increase the probability that your homestreet will be selected by increasing the presence of the resource on your street. So as a route user, I'd be going to yards that are more full than not more of the time.
The key is that under any of these systems, homestreets that don't qualify are not in the running at all, but can get back in just by bringing their street back up to snuff.
Another thought is that how long it's been since you were last selected might also factor in to the probability you are chosen.
One concern with maintaining multiple routes, say one high and one medium density for each basic resource that can be gathered in homestreets, is why would anyone use the medium density route? I have a thought that it might cost more in some way to use the high density route. Perhaps there is an energy cost to using a route signpost, which is higher on the higher density routes. This might also serve to encourage people to gather in Ur as much as possible, and salve the feelings of those who hate routes because they make resource collection too easy.
One big weakness of this system is it doesn't do much for non-resource routes. Some, like tower stores or furniture showrooms, might be manageable by this kind of system. Others, like the community kitchens and the free stuff piles, could be managed his way if there is no inclusion criteria set, or if it's possible to check say, items on the ground in a location. (That seems doubtful to me without making the process overly onerous, but what do I know?) Finally, some kinds of routes that are possible with a third party website (like take me to streets with exhausted plots to repair) probably can't be done this way at all.
One of the reasons I'd prefer to see a dedicated signpost for each route is that the way you describe it above, there is an awful lot of menu interaction and scrolling or page turning each time you switch streets. It would be preferable to minimize that.
I also think that having to invest separately in each signpost or dedicated sign on a common signpost would be a good thing. Perhaps, people could set their regular homestreet signs to a route address, and the cost (in energy, mood, or currants, possibly) would be displayed.
So starting in my yard, I say, "ALL THE SPARKLY PLZ." From that point until I go back home, every *other* designated sign will take me to a random sparkly street.
I also like the idea that every street on a route costs something. Maybe the cost would be slightly more, depending on how many other streets on that route you had already visited that day?
What if the interest route was more like a toggle button menu, with the option to turn on interests, and you could indicate you wanted to do a free stuff pile, or be a part of the community kitchen network, or both, or none. Then, you would be able to set your outgoing sign to the interest route options as well as the resource options. And that there is an option to toggle your tower to store, museum, art gallery, etc, and maybe particular types of stores; we know the data was in the API before, but as the data gets more fine grained it seems maybe like a lot for the servers to handle. And if we acknowledge that you can't really use minimums or inclusion criteria for many of the interest routes, then you have to accept that people will eventually go off mission and stop offering what they used to, so you will sometimes visit yards that don't have the things you're looking for.
I'd prefer something in-game to something in groups or forums, but those solutions would be better than a third party website. I think the need to be self-monitoring is also really important, so that would probably be issue 3b.
I think the simplest solution, that I elaborated above, leaves non-resource routes out in the cold but I don't think it would be too hard on the servers to maintain a list of people who have the relevant signpost or sign on their route signpost, and also have at least 40% or 80% of the relevant resource in their yards, and to choose a member from that list randomly when someone uses the sign or signpost. The rest is just frills.
@tis, do you think that would work? And I think that any in-game solution is a long way down the road so SRS will probably need to live again.
Also @Scar As much as I would love to see an integrated system for maintaining resource routes because it would make it easier on us... I'd rather it not be something the devs of Eleven put time into. I'd much rather us struggle along with the tools we're given (Isn't that the wonder of emergent gameplay, as stoot always liked to talk about?) and still achieve pretty dang good results, while the devs work on bringing us new skills, new worlds and completely novel gameplay elements a la feats. Just generally pushing Eleven past where Glitch left off. (When we get to the point where we're discussing new content of course, so pretty far off.)
I think the issue with this is that it would make using routes too easy. I think there needs to be some element of having to seek out the routes "physically", even if it is just /home-ing and then using the routes signpost that you built, or finding someone else's homestreet with the resource sign you are looking for.
@"Lady Cailia" I like the random route, and yeah, it would be a great default for the "interest route" category.
@"Liza Throttlebottom" and Lazy Cubimal: the problem with the forum or group sign on and
leave is that you still have the issues of directing traffic and removing people who aren't participating anymore. Even with some pretty sophisticated tools, it still means relying on the person who doesn't want to be involved any more to change things, or getting the person uproute of them to change their sign, and either of these things takes a while.
The issue with posting a note pole next to the signpost with directions is that people don't want to have to take an extra step of interaction before going to the next yard, or at least, the people who are in it to gather a lot of resources as fast as possible, don't. So you need consistency in terms of which sign is associated with a route.
Unless there is some in game method of creating the route and monitoring it, then it is a LOT of work to maintain a lengthy, high quality route. Yes, there are volunteers but there is also burnout.
Finally, I'm afraid I do want someone on the dev team to spend some time on this problem - after everything else is working, of course, but eventually. I know intimately what it's like to struggle along with the tools we were given, and there was a lot of emergent gameplay, but little of it had to do with the actual route administration. What's more, it promotes "I'm the boss of you" behaviour that is not all that collaborative. Tiny Speck was thinking about how they could support the routes in game, and iMG for visitors was not the whole of it, as I was made to understand. So my contribution to the work right now is just to think really hard about architecture and implications so that there is a solid idea, or better yet, ideas ready to go whenever someone is willing to take up the problem.
less work, but still require active, daily management from one dedicated person per route.
The reason I think you should be able to hand it over is so that when the route changes hands you don't need the entire route to do it one by one. Maybe you could get a notification via butler about if you agree to it next time you go /home?
And, thinking About menus, and groups and forums ... Why not have the signup request and acceptance go through the butler? N actually, hear me out on this.
Let's say that above a certain level and after gaining cerain qualifications, you can interact with your butler to start a route. You can set the resource qualifications* or write a short (like Twitter short) description of a specialty interest route. Your butler will use this phrase when referring to your route to visitors.
* I'm imagining that you say at least as many spice as I have, and then explain any more complicated requirements via a note pole, or other means. This actually means you could start a really specific route, like, at least as many spice, sparkly, jellisac and fireflies as I have.
To join the route, people come to your homestreet and ask your butler if they can join. By asking, they are giving you permission to change their signs on their signpost. To accept, you agree to their request via your butler and then visit whatever homestreet signs you need to to include them in the route. To leave they can request to leave, but if they forget, the owner can still route around them.
What I like about this version of the idea is that it leaves the sophistication of the level of route monitoring up to you. You can use a third party website, or you can walk around your route and use the eyeballs method. You can start a group, or advertise in the forums, or whatever. It can just be you and your friends. It's up to individuals how to organize, and how much work to put in, and how fancy the tool to use. I think this would continue to promote community.
And no new elements need to be added, just a new form of messages being left with butlers (like asks), and the game only has to keep the permissions information straight, which is kind of like keys.
It would be additionally great if you could pass an established route to a new person, and then each route member could agree via their butler to give the new person permissions. I think you could do an awful lot with those three things: join/leave/start via your butler, granting permissions via the join request being accepted, and passing the route to someone new. That would really make routes more accessible. And I think you'd still see a few big players shake out, and a bunch of really interesting specialty routes.